George Jagodzinski (00:00):
Today we talk about success, freedom, and why winning on paper doesn't always feel like winning in real life. We get into what happens after the win, the hidden cost of chasing the wrong scorecard, and why energy, not time, is the real limiting factor for leaders. My guest today is Mark Rampolla. Mark is the founder of Zico Coconut Water. He built the brand, sold it to Coca-Cola, bought it back, and today he's the co-founder and co-managing partner at Groundforce Capital. Mark is also the author of a fantastic book, An Entrepreneur's Guide to Freedom, where Mark frames freedom not as the reward for success, but as the foundation for it. If you're a founder or a leader who's successful on the outside but feels like the grind never really stops, this one's for you. Please welcome Mark Rampolla.
(00:54):
Welcome to Evolving Industry, a no BS podcast about business leaders who are successfully weaving technology into their company's DNA to forge a better path forward. If you're looking to actually move the ball forward rather than spinning around in a tornado of buzzwords, you're in the right place. I'm your host, George Jagodzinski. Mark, thanks so much for being here.
Mark Rampolla (01:22):
Thanks for having me, George. I'm honored.
George Jagodzinski (01:23):
I love your story so much, man. And I'm going to have to be careful that I don't turn this into my own personal therapy session here, but I figured an interesting place to start is, you've built a very successful brand. You sold it. You bought it back. You've invested in a bunch of other brands. You're very busy. You've had a lot of success, yet you've really honed in on the topic of freedom. I'm curious when and why did that happen, and what does freedom mean to you?
Mark Rampolla (01:49):
I think for me, this was a couple years after I sold Zico, found myself "winning". I had won, sold the business, piled money in the bank, made my investors money, walked away from the company, built a beautiful beach house. And by every definition, I had met or exceed almost all my goals, and yet I felt myself right back in the grind. It was a different grind. I was investing. I was advising. I'll never forget this morning where I woke up and went down to meditate like I always did and staring out at the Pacific. And my mind just going, going, going, going, going, going, going, exactly as it had done for the last 30 years or so. Just like, I got to do this. I got to run there. What about this? And if he calls this and this email, and I'm worried about this. And I finally stopped and realized, oh my God, I thought this would be different.
(02:49):
I thought that part of the success would be true freedom and freedom from this noise, this should and must, can't, there, all that noise that's going on. And so, it was sort of a wake-up call for me that said, damn, I can have money in the bank. I can have built the success. I can have the accolades of friends and family in the industry, but am I truly free in my own space to make the choices I want minute to minute, day to day, and without this noise? And I didn't feel it. I didn't feel it. And so I started pretty much a seven-year journey to figure out, all right, what do I need to do to get what I really want, which is that sense of freedom, regardless of, of course I want money in the bank, of course I want to have fun, of course I want to do interesting work, but I want to feel that day to day sense of freedom and aliveness that I thought would come from the success.
(03:53):
And so that journey took me on sort of breaking down my life and in many ways sort of building a new operating system from the bottom up that was freedom first. And the sort of premise I came to is, what if I start with that and live with that? Could that in fact still deliver the monetary and living and outside success I want, but also deliver the internal sense of success and freedom that I was looking for? And I found it has. I found it has.
George Jagodzinski (04:25):
That's a great story. I'm curious, as you look back at that, it seems you were measuring yourself on the wrong scorecard to start with. What were the hidden costs of doing that?
Mark Rampolla (04:37):
Oh, man. Great question, George. When I look back at the time, I could have told a story about how great my life is, and it was in many ways. But when I really took a look and was honest with myself, first of all, even financially, even though I had eight figures in the bank, I never needed to work again unless I was an idiot, my finances were out of control. I was investing like an idiot. I was spending and not keeping track of my money. I used to be obsessively organized, and I wasn't at all. My health was good until I would push some limit. My back would be out, or I was partying late night. I'm waking up hung over. I'm over caffeinated to try to recover from that. And I'm always trying to find this, get this perfectly optimized energy level. So my energy is all over the place.
(05:29):
My relationship, I'd been in a marriage for 20 plus years at that time, which on the outside seemed great. In many ways it was great, but man, we were really struggling, and we had a lot of love for each other but we were struggling. And so, when I started to tick down my broader definition of success, it's not like I didn't have it. On most of those measures, even wealth, let alone health and love and fulfillment and purpose and energy, I was the same or worse than I had been when I was in the depth of running Zico. And so I realized, okay, money alone isn't going to solve this. And in many ways, without doing the inner work, money just complicates it because it makes it like I've got so many more possibilities. All these options that are beautiful and wonderful, but without a process to manage myself and work through them, they become a distraction.
George Jagodzinski (06:28):
Man, you're speaking right into my soul, Mark. You're looking at a guy who I just busted my hip and my knee dancing too hard at a Christmas party just a month ago.
Mark Rampolla (06:35):
Wow, [inaudible 00:06:38].
George Jagodzinski (06:37):
I want to pull the thread though on energy because I love your common language of energy up and energy down. And so, explain to us that and how do you use that in your day to day, week to week?
Mark Rampolla (06:51):
Yeah, sure. I came to this conclusion with there's nothing, nothing magical about this. I think this is physics and neuroscience kind of basics is time is not our limiting resource. It's energy. And when you think about, when you dive into something you love, you're passionate about, you're in your creative energy, I'm sure you've had experiences where you can get done in an hour what it might've taken you 10 days, right? That key insight, that big focus, that's energy. And so, what I found is I think it kind of helped me in some ways I had ADHD my entire life. And so I've seen the swings where I go from ridiculously productive to want to sleep on the couch for a few days. I managed those swings for years, drinking, doing other substances in the evening, caffeine and other crazy stuff, and they always swing back and forth.
(07:43):
And I started to see if I could manage and control my energy, man, not only did I get more productive and was able to focus and pay attention to what I wanted, but also throughout the days and weeks and months and years, I just had less swings, less swings. And not just that I was at a medium, I was able to take my energy up. And so I started [inaudible 00:08:09] only focusing on my calendar to focus on my energy. So one of the tricks you and I talked about is an energy audit where I look at my calendar on a regular basis, weekly at least, not daily and say, "Do I have an energy up or an energy down to this next meeting I have or what's on my schedule for a couple days out?" And I got brutal, but also just in the spirit of curiosity of testing and learning, let me see if I kill this meeting, what happens?
(08:37):
And it turns out that so many of the meetings I was having were things I believed I should be a part of. I'm telling myself a story. I'll tell you about another tool in a moment. But I looked at the story I'm telling myself, literally writing it down. I need to be at that meeting because I need to show up that I'm the leader. I'm the managing partner of, the co-managing partner of the firm. I need to show up. And I started to ask myself, am I certain? Am I absolutely certain that's true? What if I test and learn? Well, how could it be the best thing that I don't show up? How might that allow somebody on my team to show up in a different way? So I cancel a meeting and watch, observe what happens around me and observe my own energy.
(09:19):
And so, what I found is that just even changing one meeting a week can change my whole energy for the week. Imagine doing a 10% change every week, what that could do to your productivity, to your focus, to your whole operating system by making that just slightest little change. But looking at it with absolute curiosity, a test and learn mindset that maybe you decide you do need to be there. You do want to be there, but can you allow yourself the space to say, what's the story you're telling yourself, and are you certain that's true?
George Jagodzinski (09:57):
Yeah. Those gains are like a superpower, right? I'm curious though, what does that look like in reality? So what's an example of a down energy meeting that you would have?
Mark Rampolla (10:06):
Oh boy, man, so many of them. So I get pinged multiple times a day from entrepreneurs that want help, right? Even if they know they're too small for us to invest as a firm, and some of them are students, right? Some of them, maybe they went to my college, maybe they follow me. And so, I get requests like that all day long. And I used to do quite a bit of those, but feeling like I'm giving back. I need to support. I want to be helpful. But when I started to actually go through this other tool that I'll mention to you that I call the freedom key, what am I thinking? What am I feeling? What do I want? Can I let it go?
(10:45):
So I would ask myself, "What am I thinking here?" And write it down, thinking I need to be helpful to this person because people helped me. Okay, am I certain? Am I 100% that the best way I can help this person is to talk with them? Maybe the best way to help them is to not talk with them and tell them I'm not available. Maybe that's a message that tells them to be disciplined with their time. Oh wow, that's interesting. What do I feel? When I get that email from somebody, I feel excited because I like talking to young people and helping. I like feeling like I'm important. Yeah, I get excited about that. Okay. Can I just own that? What do I really want? It's typically acknowledgement, control or security. I want to feel acknowledged. I like when people, "Oh, Mark, I've read your book. I like your story." I like that. How can I be my own source of acknowledgement?
(11:39):
And so, when I do this process quickly enough, I can in one minute save a 30-minute call. And I used to have probably three or four calls like that a week. Now I rarely do, but occasionally when I have an energy up, I get some killer email. I just feel the energy. I want a hit of that in some ways. I take it. And then, I usually find it's amazing and [inaudible 00:12:06] I get to learn. I get to learn, renew, get smarter, more disciplined with my schedule. But more often than not, I realize for me, everybody's different, my biggest challenge was dealing with the guilt of not having the meeting.
George Jagodzinski (12:19):
Yeah, the guilt's a big one.
Mark Rampolla (12:20):
Right? So the price I was paying for not facing my guilt is wasting having a meeting, using my time and energy, which is better. You start to learn to run these equations. Oh, I'd rather just deal with the guilt. It's just guilt. Just a feeling that moves through me that I realize, oh, I've been doing a lot in my life to avoid guilt, to avoid shame, to avoid anger, to avoid these feelings versus just feeling them.
George Jagodzinski (12:50):
I actually went through your freedom key exercise for some of mine because being vulnerable here, one down energy thing that I found happening was some one-on-ones with some of my own leadership team. And I felt really bad about that because I was like, "This is my team, man. I should be pumped for it." But going through the freedom key exercise, what I realized is it wasn't about the meeting necessarily. It's about reshaping it because when the one-on-one was them just asking permission for things that I know they should just run with themselves or tactical items, it's a down energy. But if the meeting's about collaborating and looking forward, then it's an up energy. And so, I found myself just shifting rather than canceling some of those.
Mark Rampolla (13:28):
George, amazing. That's the other trick too, is what can you do to renegotiate with yourself or another to shift that? And so, I've started asking young people, I got an email in from a college student or something, it's like, "Hey, what can you share for me that's going to be worth my while?" And someone might say, "Oh, that's so rude, whatever." Are you kidding me? It puts the burden back on them. You're in a beautiful institution. You're learning something. If they can't come and show something, then I'm doing them a disservice, right? But if they can, then I'm an energy up.
(14:03):
And I'll tell you, George, you're not alone in this. This one of the things that you and I talked about. When I started to get vulnerable with other entrepreneurs around this, I started to hear everyone struggles. We're all human. We all have our struggles. It's part of the human experience, right? What amazes me is the time and attention people put on all the other business processes, technology, including AI, and they're not looking at their own internal operating system. They're thinking. They're feeling the way they manage their energy. And I was texting over the holidays with a couple billionaires that are like, same thing, reading the book like, "Oh my God, nobody's ever talked to me about this. I've been struggling with this my entire life." And on paper, they look like the definition of success.
George Jagodzinski (14:51):
I love that. Yeah. And in that internal operating system, there's something that I love that you wrote about is it was about your internal critic and not feeling bad about your internal ... Because that's just one part of the operating system. And I'd love you to expand on that a little bit because I am certainly guilty of that is I'll beat myself up, but then I'll feel bad that I beat myself up about something, right? So it's like, what are we doing here?
Mark Rampolla (15:15):
Oh, it's a beautiful spot. George, the fact that this is what I encourage is just the self-awareness, right? I may have this fact wrong. Somebody can fact check me on this, but I think the number is we have 60 to 80,000 thoughts a day, I think is the number.
George Jagodzinski (15:32):
Jeez.
Mark Rampolla (15:33):
Very clear research. 80 to 85% of them are negative.
George Jagodzinski (15:37):
Wow.
Mark Rampolla (15:37):
At least in the US. This is just what it is, right? And 90 plus percent are recurring, right? So nothing right or wrong about that. This is what I encourage people to just see it as reality. It's just reality. Oh, this is what George does. This is what Mark does. Isn't that fascinating when you can observe your thinking? And this is where, again, I encourage people to write it down because our minds play tricks on ourselves, but if we write it down, what is the story I'm telling myself? Long story short, I left my luggage in New York. Okay? I'm an idiot. What's the story I'm telling myself? I'm an idiot because I left my luggage in New York.
(16:12):
And I'm really an idiot because now it's going to cost me money to bring it back. And how could I have done that? How irresponsible of me? And what else am I irresponsible for? And by the way, now I don't have my favorite toothbrush and just start going down the spiral. But when you can step back and observe it with curiosity, not criticism, yep, that's what Mark does. Mark's got a very powerful inner critic, and that has served me very well. And it will continue to serve me well. When I understand it, I can see it, and I can come back and say, "What's the story I'm telling myself? Am I certain it's true? What's the feelings that come up?" Because this is another thing I think people underestimate. It's as if the old adage there's no place for emotions in business.
(16:59):
[inaudible 00:17:01], right? We're human. We have them. And also the latest in neuroscience talks about resonance, how actually to get what we want and manifest what we want. You got to have alignment between your thoughts and your feelings and your gut, your physical body, your whole energy system is [inaudible 00:17:18]. And so yeah, when I think back to me leaving my luggage in New York, I feel guilty. I feel guilty. I feel like an idiot. Okay, that's just there. Not right or wrong. That's what Mark does. What do I want underneath that? Oh God, I can really see I want control. I want control. I want to know that I can control myself. I can control my environment. I control this thing.
(17:43):
Yeah. Okay. Can I just let that be? That's just what it is. And what do I learn from that and how do I go forward? Then I'm back to a state of freedom, and now I can make a choice. Do I go back to New York for the luggage? Do I have the luggage sent? Do I forget about the luggage? Those are all options that are available to me when I'm free.
George Jagodzinski (18:00):
Yeah, totally. And that trickles out into the culture of your company so much. We try to have a blame-free culture, but what I started to realize is if I'm blaming myself, that's going to be apparent. Even if it's internal, it just oozes out of your pores, and people can smell it. And so just inserting that curiosity instead of that blame and that part of that drama triangle, it's so much better.
Mark Rampolla (18:25):
Okay. On that, George, one thing I might encourage you, and this is all testing and learning, right? If you're comfortable in taking a little risk here might be to share with your team a little bit of that internal thinking, which is this, oh man, oh God, you know what? I can see I want to blame so-and-so or something. If you got a culture that works out, but really I'm blaming myself. Oh yeah, there I go again. Okay. You know what? That's there, right? I'm sure you guys probably are familiar with that. I can see how I'm blaming myself. I wish I had done this. I wish I had done that. And we actually do this at Groundforce where we create a little bit of space for a drama triangle. So my partner and I will do this one-on-one, and we'll also do this in the team, is sometimes just, we call it get on the drama triangle, which is just bitch and moan for a moment, just for a moment.
(19:13):
It's helpful just to release that, right? Which is literally like, okay, what's the story I'm telling? God damn it, I wish had ... I'm an idiot because I didn't get that email out in time for that guy. Had we gotten the email out in the time, then the team might've responded, and then we might've gotten the deal versus losing that deal, right? "Oh God, I hate when I do this. Why do I keep ... " And when you can have fun and laugh at it yourself, more often than not, other people laugh at it, lightens the load, and then everybody can come back to say," Okay, now what? Now what?" That could be true. Are we certain that's true? What if it's the best thing that we missed this deal? And I'll tell you a story. Sometimes it works out this way. We haven't closed yet, but we're looking at a company and very close to an investment opportunity.
(20:03):
I'm sitting there yesterday with the management team in a multi-hour meeting, and I realized, oh my God, I can see we either passed on or missed out on three opportunities in the last three to four years that I was kicking myself. I was angry. I was disappointed. I was sad. And not too long ago, I had a more limited ability to process this stuff. And as a team, we certainly didn't. And I can see now this one has the potential to be the best one, better than all of those. And so it just occurred to me, wow, what if we needed to say no to all of those or they needed to say no to us to be ready for this opportunity, right? Just allow that possibility. And if you can allow that possibility every meeting, every day, every interaction, it's limitless what we can do.
George Jagodzinski (20:57):
I love that. But let me now play devil's advocate and be the cold-blooded businessman. So you're talking about freedom and self-compassion and you can kind of let things happen, but at the end of the day, don't business need goals and accountability? And they do need successes and results and all that. And so how do you hold all of that in concert?
Mark Rampolla (21:18):
Oh, great question. Yes, absolutely. I believe the assumption in what you're saying is the way to get those results is bear your feelings, not beat up on ourselves and others for the past, criticize how we operate, yields better results. That's the hypothesis. That's the equation. Are you certain that works? George, are you certain, 100% certain?
George Jagodzinski (21:44):
I certainly am not. Oh, yes. In the devil's argument, yes.
Mark Rampolla (21:48):
Yeah. What we're doing is, and this is an individual choice, what I'm doing and we're doing as a firm is, we've got a different hypothesis. We think the way to get better results is this sort of freedom first operating system, and we're testing and learning. We check in. We have a radical candor culture. Got on a call this morning, junior person on our team says, "We've got a vendor that hasn't been performing." I've worked with this person for a long time. They're a friend. I felt some shame about this, and we talked through it. And I was able to share with people, look, this is a friend. I feel some shame about this. I feel like I should have done more about this. And we opened up, but it's so focused on accountability that there's no place to hide, but there's no reason to hide.
(22:40):
Because when I can own that, I take 100% responsibility for myself. Somebody else takes 100% responsibility for them. I own all my feelings. I own all my reactions. They need to as well. Then we create a space where we all get to learn and get to the balanced outcome like that. We had a 30-minute meeting that could have been like, "Well, he's thinking this. I'm feeling that. She wants this. We're emailing back and forth all this garbage, all this drama." So I'd rather get it out and say, "Oh God, I got some fear about doing this. I'm not sure about I want to have the conversation alone because he's a friend, and how's this going to go?" And my partner Dan says, "You know what? I hear that as well. I actually want to be on the call." And we've saved 20 emails and all this conversation by getting out in front of us. We got feelings. We got thoughts. We got stories we're telling ourselves. Let's get that all out, and bam, we're getting to the results.
George Jagodzinski (23:38):
Yeah. And that will yield better results than any false harmony results oriented organization.
Mark Rampolla (23:44):
I tell a story, which actually someone on my team tells a story that came out of top investment bank and private equity background, and that's our whole team. Results delivered, 100 hour work suite, grind away. And this guy said, somebody said, "Well, what's the Groundforce culture like?" And he said, "Mark cried in a board meeting."
George Jagodzinski (24:07):
Wow.
Mark Rampolla (24:08):
Said, "I've never seen anyone, let alone a senior partner cry in a board meeting." And someone asked him, "Well, what happened?" He said, "It was unbelievable. It broke through something that we were all stuck on for months." And what I shared is I just stopped and said, "I don't know what to do. I think I should be the one that knows what to do, and that scares the shit out of me. And so, I don't know what to do." And the room went silent. So one person sort of stepped in like, "I know what to do. I know what to do. I know what to do." In which became very clear, okay, that person is not ... We've tried those things, right? This is a time for acknowledging we don't know what to do.
(24:58):
And we walked out of that meeting not knowing what to do, but that was the most powerful reset because it allowed us to say, "Okay, how do we figure out what to do?" We stuck. We looked. We listened. We went through a rigorous process of a couple months. That company grew 40% last year. It's going to grow another 40% next year, and it was like this for a while. And it could have gone the other way around, for sure.
George Jagodzinski (25:29):
Wow, what a fantastic example. I love that. As you wrote this book, as much as we would all love that a fully formed book just dumps out of your brain, I'm sure it was a process. And this type of stuff, it seems like it's a lot of soul-searching and some hard truths. Was there a real hard truth that you found difficult to write about or something that was just really eye-opening as you went through the process?
Mark Rampolla (25:51):
Boy, a lot of it, George, a lot of it. I think people talk about, "Download. I got to download." It just came out of me. That certainly wasn't the case. But what I did learn through this process is, and it's one of the things I now practice and guide leaders on as well is, there is the skillset of, it's like a gearbox, like a manual to a sports car. Most of the people have two gears, on and off, on and off. Push, push, push, push. I've learned, oh, there's other gears. One of those gears is neutral, where you just sit back and observe and see what wants to come through. You're watching the energy on the outside. You're watching the energy on the inside. And so the writing process for me was a combination. Some of it was push, push, push fast. Some of it was push slow. Some of it was lower gears, higher gears. And some of it was neutral to just say, "Okay, what feels true? What's to come through me?"
(26:49):
And what came through me was some pretty vulnerable stuff. I share about some of my challenges with drinking and other substances, with my marriage, with my investing. I'm so, so thankful my partner, Dan, was supportive of this because he and I are running a half billion dollar institutional investment firm. We want to build a multi-billion dollar investment firm that delivers best in class results and has one of the, if not the best, culture in finance. We think that's a competitive advantage. But yet here I am talking about post Zico and early, in fact, in our investment history, just the mistakes I made, all the bad investments I made and why I made them and the struggles I had, because that's who I am. And I feel like I can be most helpful to others by being vulnerable. Some people are going to resonate with this, others will not, and that's okay. That'll work itself out.
George Jagodzinski (27:52):
I'm going to guess that after going through all you've gone through and then the cathartic exercise of writing about this, I bet you have a great spidey sense for identifying founders who are really in it for the right reasons and they can embrace freedom versus just chasing validation. As an investor, A, is that true? And what do you look for? What are the signs that you look for as an investor?
Mark Rampolla (28:17):
I value rigor, process and intuition. We have a ridiculously rigorous process. That's a multipage criteria that we look for. We put any founder we back through psychological assessments and personality profiles and a lot of other work. It's not about good or bad. It's about understanding. We want to see their level of self-awareness, and then there's intuition. And it's not just mine. We use our whole teams. But yes, I'd say I have a very good intuition about leadership in general until I don't because I have blind spots. But I know what they are, and I share them with my team. They know what they are so they can help me avoid those. And I'll tell you what one of my biggest blind spots is. I tend to think any problem is solvable, and it's a beautiful asset. I love that about myself. I cultivated and honed that my entire life.
(29:16):
It served me very well as an entrepreneur, but it is not a good characteristic as an investor because what I tend to do is then project that onto a leader and say, "Well, if I could figure that out, they can figure it out too." Great investors do not do that. And so, there's a few areas where an entrepreneurial background is a terrible preparation to be an institutional investor. Fortunately, I've learned those, a lot of them on my own dime in my investment capital, to now be able to compliment those with the rigor. And so yes, I've got a great spidey sense. Yes, my intuition's getting better and better and better. I, like everyone, have blind spots. And when you're aware of your blind spots, share them with others, then you can help each other fill those blind spots and get the best results.
George Jagodzinski (30:06):
Oh man, that's great. And guilty as charged on the same blind spot. One of my teammates said, he categorizes it as the can't you just stuff. Because I'll find myself, look, can't you just solve this? And he's like, don't you can't you just me?
Mark Rampolla (30:22):
Look, George, I love what I'm hearing you say is you've created a culture where you get feedback. And that is so powerful because it's not easy, but man, when we get that and we can take it and those little phrases, whatever they are, when we hear them from people, they're powerful because the beauty is we all have them. And this is one of the things I write about in the book, [inaudible 00:30:44], where mine is absolutely certain aspects of this intuition about people, but somebody else's is really good at filling in my blind spots. And when you can have the right organization where everybody's playing to their strengths, we're not trying to become someone we're not. We're not trying to become some perfect leader. I'm trying to become the best Mark. That's it. That's it.
George Jagodzinski (31:09):
That's fantastic. And Mark, I could literally talk to you all day. I'd like to finish on one question, which is what's the best advice you've ever received in life, your career, anywhere?
Mark Rampolla (31:20):
From a very successful mentor of mine, a chairman and CEO of numerous multi-billion dollar companies. Early in my career, at some point he said, "Mark, relax. Do good work and the rest will take care of itself." And to hear that from that successful of a guy in a corporate setting, and that is in many ways, my mantra to life. Relax. Do the best I can do, do good work, show up in full, on time, and you can't control the outcome.
George Jagodzinski (31:56):
That's great. You've basically turned that sentence into a book now. So that's fantastic.
Mark Rampolla (32:01):
I did. I did. Hadn't thought about that, George. Thank you for that. I hadn't thought about ... Bob Amen was his name. I haven't thought about that for a while. I need to send him a book. He was a great, great, great man.
George Jagodzinski (32:10):
That's great. Mark, thank you so much for being here.
Mark Rampolla (32:12):
You're welcome, George. I really enjoyed it.
George Jagodzinski (32:15):
Thanks for listening to Evolving Industry. For more, subscribe and follow us on your favorite podcast platform, and pretty please drop us a review. We'd really appreciate it. If you're watching or listening on YouTube, hit that subscribe button and smash the bell button for notifications. If you know someone who's pushing the limits to evolve their business, reach out to the show at evolvingindustry@intevity.com. Reach out to me, George Jagodzinski on LinkedIn. I love speaking with people getting the hard work done. The business environment's always changing, and you're either keeping up or going extinct. We'll catch you next time, and until then, keep evolving.