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When Culture Outruns Corporate: Women in the C-Suite

Announcer1 (00:00):


While social trends like the “Me Too" movement have helped bring America's archaic views on female disempowerment out into the light, corporate America is still lagging behind in gender equality. While some strides have been made over the last decade, less than 10% of the C-suite are women today. Julia Boorstin, Senior Media and Technology reporter at CNBC, and author of “When Women Lead” shares why she believes the workplace status quo is still tilted against female leaders.



Announcer2 00:34

You're listening to C-Suite Blueprint, the show for C-suite leaders. Here, we discuss no-BS approaches to organizational readiness and digital transformation. Let's start the show.

George Jadogzinski (01:10):

Julia, thanks so much for being here.

Julia Boorstin (01:12):

Thank you so much for having me, George. It's a pleasure.

George Jadogzinski (01:15):

It was a pleasure reading your book, and something that really struck out to me was your positivity and your optimism. And reading through it, and even your own personal stories and experiences, that positivity could very easily be rage and frustration. So I'm curious where that comes from and how you balance those two things.

Julia Boorstin (01:35):

Look, I've been extraordinarily lucky in my life, in my career, so I have to say I can't imagine feeling rage just because I feel like I've been so lucky in my life. I think frustration is something that I have felt, but I think one reason I'm optimistic and I am so positive, is twofold. Number one, the women I have met and I have interviewed, both in my career as a reporter at CNBC but also for When Women Lead, are so inspiring. They are accomplishing so many phenomenal, remarkable, surprising things. They make me optimistic. They make me believe that the business world is going to a more gender-diverse place simply because of the examples that they're showing me. The other reason I'm optimistic is because of the data. Study after study after study indicates that companies with more diversity, both in terms of gender and in terms of race, are more successful. Diversity of ideas, which oftentimes comes from a diversity of backgrounds, helps make companies more successful. So ultimately, I think people are greedy, and if they are greedy, they'll follow the numbers and follow the data and invest more in diversity.

George Jadogzinski (02:47):

We can use capitalism on our side-

Julia Boorstin (02:47):


George Jadogzinski (02:50):

... in that regard. I love data more than anyone, but I think also we're of similar age. Anecdotally, how do you feel the trajectory has been just throughout your career and life?

Julia Boorstin (03:00):

Progress has been slow, and I think it's interesting because the actual progress in terms of the number of women in leadership has been slow. I mean, now eight and a half percent of Fortune 500 CEOs are women. That's up from four percent, what, a decade ago, but it's still tiny. So yes, there's been progress, but the overall percentages are tiny. Venture capital funding, there's been effectively no progress over the past decade. About three percent of all venture capital dollars went to female founders. That declined to two percent in 2021, and it has continued to decline in 2022. I think it was 2.4 percent in 2021. It is now down to two percent or 1.9%. So, on one hand, you have very little tangible progress or slow tangible progress in terms of leadership. And yes, there's been progress, but the overall numbers are slow. When we graduated college in 2000, I was shocked then by how few women held positions in power. Based on the way I was raised by my parents and my family, I did think, by now, we would see more women in leadership positions than that eight and a half percent of women running the Fortune 500.


Having said that, I do think there's been a lot of cultural change, and I think the “Me Too” reckoning of 2017, 2018 was a big part of that. And I think that, on one hand, that's a great thing because companies now have affinity groups, they have DEI organizations. So there has been cultural change. But I think what's been frustrating for a lot of people is the disconnect between the perception of change in the amount of change there's actually been. I was talking to some people who were kind of incredulous at some of those stats that I just laid out, the eight and a half percent, about the two percent of EC dollars. They were just like, "How's that even possible?" And I think the answer is they think that there's been more progress because there are more women on the covers of magazines. There's more conversation about failed female CEOs like Elizabeth Holmes. There's more conversations about female CEOs in general and about gender and leadership and all this. So because there is that conversation and culturally we're having that conversation, people would expect there to have been more numerical progress.


So, on one hand, I think the cultural conversation is a positive thing that we can even be talking about these things. But on the other hand, I think that disconnect can be incredibly frustrating for women. And just being on my book tour, I've talked to a number of women at big male-dominated industries, which ... because every industry is male-dominated, but big male-dominated companies who are saying, "It drives me crazy that the men I work with think that everything is fixed. But look at the numbers. It's still far from fixed." I think it's both: there's a benefit to the cultural change, but also a frustration around the disconnect.

George Jadogzinski (05:46):

Yeah. And the trajectory is there, but the pace is not what we would all hope that it would be.

Julia Boorstin (05:52):


George Jadogzinski (05:52):

In prepping for this, I listened to some of your other interviews, and you said something that I heard verbatim from my mother, which is they had two options when they were going to school. They could be a nurse, or they could be a teacher. And what's funny is... So, I grew up with some very strong aunts and my mother, just female figures of my life. In a family of five, from the oldest to the youngest, the youngest was then able to go into finance. So just in that one span of those five children, there's a little bit of the move up, but it's interesting to remind ourselves of how recent that was to now think about the pace of change.

Julia Boorstin (06:26):

Yeah. Generationally, I mean, when my mom graduated college, she was like teacher or nurse. She chose teacher, and she worked as a teacher for 11 years, and then she went on and had other careers doing other things, but it took her a full decade to break out of that. And, by the way, she loved being a teacher. She did have a great chapter of her life as a teacher. But this idea that I thought I could do anything. What I didn't realize was that I wouldn't be able to reach the highest ranks. So my parents said, "You could go into any industry you want. You could go into politics, you could go into medicine, you could go into business," or whatever. They said that the world would be my oyster. They were right in that I could enter these fields. What they were wrong about was my chances of making it to the very top.


So I think what's interesting is there's this annual McKinsey-Lean In Study, and the one that came out this fall soon after my book came out showed this very clear graphic that shows why women aren't making it to the C-suite. And it looks at the pipeline of men and women, white men, men of color, white women, women of color, and the numbers in which they enter the workforce. And then the pipes decline for everyone other than white men going from every level of promotion from the entry-level up to the C-suite. So the women are dropping out or missing out on promotions at every level, every phase of this whole process. And so, to see it all graphically laid out explains why there hasn't been more progress. Women are missing the first promotion. If they're not getting the second promotion, then their chances of making it anywhere near the C-suite are minuscule. And so, I think there are these structural changes that don't just take a year or two to fix - take generations to fix.

George Jadogzinski (08:10):

They do, and the data doesn't lie. What I struggle with is you talk about these traits of successful female leaders or just leaders in general, right? Empathy, vulnerability, compassion. And there's tons of research that's important for leaders, and they create stable psychological safety nets for teams. Teams are more productive. Innovation can thrive in workplaces like that. But then the research also shows that the perceived difference of when that trait is carried out by a man versus a woman is very, very different. So I think it was even at your alma mater, Susan Fisk has that model of stereotypes where compassion and competence, someone who's very compassionate don't have ... if they're implied don't have the competence, then there's more inclined to have pity on that person, rather to actually trust them as a leader.

Julia Boorstin (09:03):

Yeah. But what's so interesting about all of this and all of these traits is that men should be able to lead with the skills and strategies that make women effective leaders, and men should be able to break free from the stereotypes of how they're supposed to act as well. And I think back ... You know, we talked about how we both entered the working world in 2000. Back then, the Jack Welch GE model was the gold standard of leadership. There was the rising tech industry, but there was this ... In terms of traditional business, Jack Welch-GE model, that was how... Six Sigma, that's how companies were supposed to be managed. And then there was this other sort of corresponding rise of this move-fast-and-break-things model. That's what leaders look like. They either look like Mark Zuckerberg, or they look like they were built in the Jack Welch model.


And I do think that leadership has sort of gone in these waves where there are certain things that are trendy in terms of skills and strategies that are elevated. But what's so interesting to me is that if we could be in a new... I hope we are at the beginning of a new phase now, and I think that the challenges of the pandemic and this recession that people think we're going into right now will shed a light on the importance for everyone to think differently about how they're leading, to think differently about how they're managing employees, to think about the importance of things like empathy and vulnerability to motivate and drive successful outcomes at their companies. That my book isn't just about inspiring women to lead like other successful women but inspiring everyone, especially men, to look at what it takes to be successful now. And it's so interesting to go back to my early days as a reporter at Fortune Magazine in 2000 and think about what types of leadership were lauded back then, and how there was this whole generation, like, nobody wants to lead like Jack Welch now. You know?

George Jadogzinski (10:47):


Julia Boorstin (10:48):

Six Sigma, that's not how business is run anymore. And I just think it's just fascinating to see how as culture changes, back to the cultural changes, and as things like pandemic change the way people are physically working or where they're physically working, the conversation about what it means to be a good leader or a good manager changes as well, or I hope it will change, as well.

George Jadogzinski (11:10):

I do, as well, and maybe this is where perception is different from reality, but I know maybe in the bubble that I'm in, we get to create our own culture and we choose our own clients, and we do live it out with empathy and trust and diverse opinions. And we see it amongst the companies that we work with. And you read things from Amy Edmondson or Patrick Lencioni, and it's all about those. Right? And throughout my career, for sure, from 2000 until now, I've even gone through a personal journey of thinking that I needed to be like that but being in conflict with it because it's not who I am at my heart. And now I find that we have a much healthier organization because of that type of leadership that we have. My business partner and I, he's a male as well, we go on a regular mindfulness and meditation retreat in the Berkshires, and we meet a lot of other female leaders there. There are not many other male leaders there, I could tell you that.

Julia Boorstin (12:05):

But what's interesting is what you just said is this idea that you were trying to lead in a way that actually wasn't authentic to you. And so much of what's essential to these skills and strategies of female leaders is they're leading in a way that's authentic to them. And I think about the amazing opportunity I had in interviewing people during the pandemic because I think the pandemic forced a reflection for everyone. Self-reflection: who am I? What do I really care about? What do I miss about the way I used to live? What do I not miss? Why am I doing this? What is it that I care so much about my company? How do I want it to be run? And I think there's this reflection that was sort of a nationwide reckoning of reflection people sort of taking a step back to think about their lives.


And what's so interesting to me is that authenticity, as... Part of authenticity is even knowing yourself. You can't be authentic if you don't take the minute to figure out who you actually are. And so, I think some of the key traits for the women I profiled were authenticity, but also humility. And the authentic understanding, like, I'm not that guy. I'm not going to ever lead like him, so let me figure out who I am, what I'm really good at, and how to make the most of those skills. And also, let me be humble about what I need to learn and how I need to get better. But that's why... I mean, it's so great to hear that you're going on your meditation retreats because a lot of that is just taking a moment to align your goals, I assume, with your co-founder, but also to figure out what you could be doing better. And that comes down to humility.

George Jadogzinski (13:37):

Yeah, but there's... And I totally agree. When I try to put myself in the shoes of a woman, and my wife and I joke about this quite a bit is: I could see where something might be frustrating where you'd say, oh, you look at a male leader who's leading with empathy and compassion. Everyone's like, "Oh my gosh, he's doing such a great job." And then maybe have some women that are sitting on the bench that are raising their hands saying, "Hey, I'm really good at that. I've always been really good at that. Why aren't you putting me in?" And I could just see that as being frustrating, like, "Hey, why did it take so long for you guys to figure that out?"

Julia Boorstin (14:10):

Yes, I mean, that could be frustrating, but I also wonder if the men who are leading with empathy and compassion are more likely to identify the fact that their female underlings, their female VPs or managers, are doing that already and are doing a great job and maybe need to be elevated. So I think if you are oblivious to the value of those skills, you might not value them in your female employees as much. And I think... I mean, ultimately, I hope in the world - you said you have a five-year-old daughter. I hope the world she grows up in, we don't have leadership traits be as gendered as they are now because men and women are both leading with all traits and really leading in ways that are authentic to them. But I think that's the thing. It's like if men don't understand the value of those skills and strategies, then they're never going to be seeing that what their women employees are doing is so valuable.

George Jadogzinski (14:57):

Yeah. And it is amazing to see things through my daughter's eyes. You know, Mary Poppins is a popular movie at our house, and when she's asking questions about women's suffrage and trying to explain to her that... And she just can't even compute to her why that would be a thing, it's very interesting. I'd love to dig a little deeper into some of these traits that you talk about female leaders have an innate ability for, and one that really jumped out to me was this ability to solve root problems and avoid the band-aid fixes. I'm curious, what's the why behind that? Why is that more innate in women?

Julia Boorstin (15:27):

And here's the thing. I want to be careful of the term innate because there's this idea that things that are innate are biologically determined. And I am not a biologist. I am a journalist, and I truly believe that almost everything I write about in my book... I think I mention testosterone maybe twice, but almost everything I write about in my book are things that are socialized, things that women are trained to do from the time they're young girls. Women are trained to be empathetic, right? There might be something biological that makes women more attuned to that, but women are trained to be empathetic because the way women are socialized to interact with their friends from a very early age.

George Jadogzinski (16:03):

That makes sense.

Julia Boorstin (16:03):

So I think it's really important because if things can be taught, then everyone can learn these things. And there's some women who are more empathetic than others, but you can pick up on clues and work to be more empathetic, or you can work to be more vulnerable. Women may be more comfortable with those things, but everyone of any gender can work on these skills and strategies. So that's why I'm always careful about the word innate. Now, in terms of this idea of big-picture solutions rather than band-aid fixes, this actually does fit into some brain science, one of two places in the book where I talk about biological differences between men and women. But again, this is something that can be practiced and taught and also has a social component to it. There's a researcher named Barbara Annis who talks about the difference between divergent and convergent thinking, and I quote her in the book in this chapter, but this is something that came up in many different stories and interviews and also in other research. So let me just explain the difference between the two. Convergent thinking is the idea that if you have a problem, you want to converge on it. You want to focus in on solving the problem as quickly and efficiently as possible. This is obviously, in many occasions, a very useful approach, right?

George Jadogzinski (16:33):


Julia Boorstin (16:36):

There's an emergency, you want to solve the problem as quickly as possible. Divergent thinking is the idea that you're pulling on threads. You're asking about things that are tangential that are not essential to the problem that you're solving but are tangential that women are more likely to do so. This is something where women are more likely to ask about these tangential things, to try to paint a bigger picture, understanding the world in which the problem exists. So I talk about this is the difference between women are asking about the forest, whereas men are more likely to try to focus on fixing a problem with a particular tree. And so, in understanding the forest, women may have more context to help fix the tree, but what's so interesting is that this is one reason why male-female partnerships are so effective and why there's so much data about the value of partnering men and women is because you want the advantages of the divergent approach and the convergent approach. You want women to be saying, "Hey, what about this thing that's tangential?" You don't want to say, "Hey, that's unrelated. You're wasting our time." You want to say, "Okay, what could we learn from this tangential thing that'll help us make the forest healthier?" And you also want to have that urgency of focusing on fixing the tree.


But I would say that this divergent approach that women are more likely to take, taking the time to ask the questions and pull on the threads, that is incredibly valuable when it comes to being adaptable. Women rank higher when it comes to adaptability quotient. And one reason I believe and I've seen in my interviews, that women are better able to adapt and pivot when the situation changes is because they've already taken the time to understand the forest. So you have a problem with the different tree, there's an emergency somewhere else in the forest, you've already taken the time to understand the whole situation. So you're better positioned to make a change and to be decisive, and make a quick adaptation. So I think that's why these things all tie in together. But I think culturally, we live in a society that's always focused on the urgency of fixing a problem now. I find that in my own work. I know it personally, just in terms of dealing with being a parent and getting through the day that it's all about, let's just fix the problem as quickly as possible.


But I think taking this divergent approach, what are the underlying issues? What are the related issues? What is the fundamental issue that may have nothing to do with the problem with the tree itself, but we need to understand to fix the tree? I think that sort of forest-trees conversation is very important to understanding any situation in business, whether you're a CEO or not. But I really think that this idea of the value of the divergent approach is something everyone can take. Even though women may be more likely to do it, men should think about the opportunity there as well.

George Jadogzinski (19:40):

That's really interesting. You know, we have the benefit of working across many different industries. And I think about it, we actually have a process that we go through where we parachute in, we do divergent-convergent thinking, and we always have a group that has a diverse set of expertise. But now that I look back at it, every single one of those teams has been a co-ed team that really... Because we're both looking for quick wins as well as the big-picture items that are out there. So that's interesting to see how it actually plays out.

Julia Boorstin (20:07):

And I've actually seen it in a lot of husband-wife teams and male-female teams. So, for instance, Spring Health, which is one of the companies I write about in my book, the CEO is a woman, April Koh, she takes a business approach, and her partner in the company is a scientist. He's the guy who did all the research about depression and mental health and outcomes and trying to correlate treatment with outcomes. And so, she took his academic research and applied it to the business model. And together, their approach... He's dealing with the tree of the research, and she's thinking about the forest of all the people that could help. The combination of that is so valuable. Or even Cityblock Health, which is another company I write about that's very much about looking at underlying problems, was founded as a partnership of a man and woman with different backgrounds: one working in public health, the other is a doctor. And so, I think, again, to break free is I'm not just saying only women should be CEOs. I'm saying we need to think differently about the strategies we use in partnerships and the opportunity in leveraging the different perspectives of women as opposed to just having teams predominantly run by men.

George Jadogzinski (21:10):

Yeah. Now more than ever, luckily, we're realizing how important resilience and flexibility and adaptability are as organizations. I mean, it's usually the top three things in the corporate strategies that we're seeing these days. It's been a frequent topic on this podcast. The other thing I wanted to dig into was “your weaknesses become your superpower.” And there's always a lot of talk about imposter syndrome, but then there's this other trait that you talk about where there's more of an inclination to entertain other people's perspectives and ideas. And I wonder, is the same thing that drives the imposter syndrome the same thing that's driving those superpowers to be able to leverage other people's point of view, have a diverse perspective?

Julia Boorstin (21:53):

I mean, that's interesting because imposter syndrome is, in a way, almost too specific to be the source of that. And that imposter syndrome is this questioning of whether you deserve to be somewhere. And I think that imposter syndrome really ties into the fact that there's lack of representation. If you don't see women in certain roles, both men and women are going to assume that women aren't good in that role. And there's all this interesting research, which I talk about in the book, and this idea is that the less representation you see of someone in a role, the more the natural assumption is that, well, those people aren't good at that thing. And I talk about it: there's a great study about jockeys and horse racing and how this plays out in the way people bet in horse racing if they don't see women compete as jockeys in certain roles. So I think imposter syndrome is you're going to assume you don't deserve to be in a place because you don't see other people like you, or maybe other people have second-guessed you.


There's a second thing about confidence, and I think imposter syndrome, I'd love to separate from confidence as much as possible because I do think imposter syndrome can be so much a reflection of society. But the research about confidence is really interesting to me, and this idea that if you're overly confident, it is dangerous for business. It's not just a negative, but overconfidence can be a distinct danger, especially in times of crisis or risky situations because, if you're overly confident, you're not considering the perspectives of other people. You're saying, "I got this all figured out," and you're making decisions which may end up being impulsive because you haven't considered the wealth of data.


What's interesting to me is the idea that if you're not feeling confident, you can use that as an opportunity and say, "I'm not feeling confident. Let me go out there and do the research. Let me do the work and let me gather perspectives from as many different corners of the company or outside the company, just gather as many different perspectives as possible, use that data that I've just gathered to put together my own opinion. And once I have that opinion, that's the moment to confidently go out and execute." And so, I think I would say imposter syndrome is like, we all deserve to be wherever we are, and we shouldn't question that, but we can take a lack of confidence in a moment as a sign that maybe it's time to go do research and then to identify when we've done enough research to feel more confident to go out and execute.


I mean, I always joke that if I'm not feeling confident going into an interview, it means I need to do more homework. And for me personally, I know I could do enough homework until I feel comfortable or confident going to every single interview as a journalist at CNBC. But part of that is pulling on different perspectives. And so, women are more likely to pull on perspectives from across an organization. But I think this idea that - leverage a lack of confidence as a hint that you need to go do that work, and then turn up the confidence when you need to go execute, and don't think of being confident all the time as the best thing. That's not the best thing. Your business is not going to be successful if you pretend to be confident all the time or even if you are confident all the time.

George Jadogzinski (24:51):

Something else I looked at with this was the perceived confidence. Men typically assume that they know what they're doing until they prove otherwise. Just I'm talking about social biases, right?

Julia Boorstin (24:51):


George Jadogzinski (24:59):

And then with women, they kind of have to prove that they know what they're doing before you believe that they have the competence. And I know, speaking from personal anecdotes, I speak very confidently about just about everything. And I've actually had to come up with common language where I stop my team, and I say, "Hey, I don't know what I'm talking about here." I just have to say that all the time because otherwise, people won't check me where I need to be checked, and it's actually a problem.

Julia Boorstin (25:22):

Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because that ties into this idea of vulnerability. If you are confident all the time or you say you're confident all the time... And I always joke that we're in a fake it till you make it society. So think about how much people are like, "Just fake it till you make it, fake it till you make it. Pretend you know what you're doing until you actually do." But if you're always pretending you know what you're doing, even when you're not quite there, then you're not being vulnerable about what you don't know, and you're not learning. One common theme I found among the 120 people I interviewed for this book is a growth mindset. And what I see as a growth mindset is a combination of humility, what you don't know, and confidence that you can learn that stuff, that you can learn what you don't know or you can learn more.


So that combination of humility and confidence, that, to me, is what creates a growth mindset. And I think faking it till you make it all the time, you end up missing out on learning all the stuff that you're going to need to know over the long run. And that's where I think vulnerability comes in, admitting what you don't know, admitting what you need help with. That's how you hire people who can complement your skillset or complement your expertise. But it's so funny what you said about, you know, you tell your team, "I don't actually know what I'm talking about right now." That's very important because my husband always jokes it's “often wrong, never in doubt” approach. It's like if you always seem like you know what you're talking about, even when you don't, then you end up losing out.

George Jadogzinski (26:43):

You do. Well, one thing we've instilled across the board is also to qualify anything anyone says to say, "Hey, this is coming from expertise," or, "This is coming from opinion." And that way, people know where they can weigh in on it. You know, your growth mindset, what really struck out to me that what you wrote about was... or you referenced, I think it was a study where when children were instilled with the growth mindset earlier, it actually kind of became a self-fulfilling prophecy where they then saw additional opportunities where they otherwise didn't. And as a father of a five-year-old daughter, I guess the thing... I was going to ask you how I could be a better leader, but I figured I'd rather ask you how I could be a better father to my daughter. What can I instill?

Julia Boorstin (27:25):

Well, I-

George Jadogzinski (27:25):

Easy question

Julia Boorstin (27:26):

I mean... Parenting, you know, parenting is so easy. I have an eight-year-old and an 11-year-old son. So it's been really interesting writing this book and reporting this book as a mother of two boys because I think about the world I want them to live in and also all the ways I want them to learn from the amazing women I wrote about. I think it's very important for all children to have a really diverse array of role models. It was mind-boggling to me, just phenomenally crazy to me, the power of pattern matching and this idea that people are always trying to fit the world into patterns that they see that exist. And our kids need to see that sometimes, leaders are women. A lot of times, leaders are women, and that can be what a leader looks like. And I think that the more they have diverse role models or diverse examples of success, the more they'll be able to see that, “Oh, I could do this, or this person could do that. Or I don't need to just assume leaders all look like Jack Welch,” back to the world we lived in when we graduated in college. So I think that that's really important for all children.


But then, in terms of all of us, I think the growth mindset is amazing. I mean, going back to this idea of applying some of these skills or some of these strategies, I love this idea of seeing women apply a growth mindset to hiring or a growth mindset to building teams. Don't put people in teams based on the experience they've had, but what you know they're capable of. Hire people who have never done this job before but can learn it, and then you're going to benefit from having these outside perspectives. So I think this idea of we should all have a growth mindset constantly, but we also can apply a growth mindset to our businesses and think about how we want our businesses to grow and change. So I guess it's both a parenting comment and a leadership comment that they're not dissimilar. But I think it goes back to the humility and the confidence. The confidence you can change and the humility to know that you don't know everything. And I mean, I think all of these things tie together.

George Jadogzinski (29:28):

Yeah, I think there's 99 percent overlap between leadership and parenting and the diversity and hiring. You know, what we always talk about is heart, mind, and briefcase. And the heart and mind are much higher priority than the briefcase that they come with.

Julia Boorstin (29:41):

I mean, who carries a briefcase anymore?

George Jadogzinski (29:43):

I saw one the other day. It was jarring actually when I saw it.

Julia Boorstin (29:47):

Was it like old school leather briefcase?

George Jadogzinski (29:48):

Very old school, yeah. Yeah, very old school. It was jarring. Julia, this has been a pleasure. It was a pleasure reading the book too. It took me on my own journey, thinking about myself and my business and my daughter and my family. You've interviewed so many amazing people. I'm always curious to ask you, what's the best advice you've ever received?

Julia Boorstin (30:08):

I'll tell you something I learned writing this book, but also in doing interviews, and it's something that I learned from my... In the context of learning it from my husband, who's a filmmaker, he's a producer. He says, "Don't save it for the sequel." And what he meant by that, or what I've taken that to mean, is if there's something you're excited about, throw it in now. Put it in the book now. Don't save it for the sequel. There's an interview question you want to ask? Don't wait till the end of the interview because you may not know how the conversation's going to go in the next 10 minutes. Don't save it. Use the good stuff now because you don't know how the world or the situation is going to change. And it's a little bit of carpe diem, seize the day, but also don't be afraid or feel like you have to hold anything back because the world may change, and the situation may change with it.


So, I was talking to my husband about whether or not to include something in this chapter. Maybe this goes in some later book or some later chapter. And he said, "Don't save it for the sequel. This is good now. Put it in there now." And I think the pandemic has sort of inspired this: what are we waiting for? Who knows how the world's going to change? And also the business situation might change. So if you have an idea for now, do it now. And I think that there is this whole idea that you have to wait until you're really ready. I mean, back to women in business, but women tend to not apply for jobs unless they meet 19 of the 20 criteria. Men will apply for a job if they meet half the criteria for a job. But I think it's like, what are you waiting for? Take the risk, throw in the story, ask the question because the situation may change. So if you have something good now, use it now.

George Jadogzinski (31:42):

Seems relevant now more than ever. I love it.

Julia Boorstin (31:45):

Don't save it for the sequel.

George Jadogzinski (31:46):

Yeah. Thanks so much for being here. Thanks for your insight and your wisdom, and appreciate the time.

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